Predestination

Brandy I hope you don't mind I just moved your question to a new "thread."
Brandy asked

Brandy, I'll take a second to write on this because I think that Pastor M has not yet joined and Pastor Jeremy is a slacker. jk

First some key passages...

There are a couple of views. First everyone must believe in "election." God chose some to be saved. But how he did that is debated. In the first passage some would argue that "foreknew" means that who God knew were going to recieve him he chose. This allows individual responsibility for coming to Christ. This is an Arminian view. Arminians think that when Calvinists say that God draws us to him and we cannot resist it, that this view removes personal responsibility. If God choses those he wants saved then why are those who are not saved judged? The other view of the Romans passage is that those who God "forknew" in the sense that he "knew them beforehand" as in intimate knowledge of them he elected. This view according to Calvinists seems to be more in line with the rest of scripture. Which brings me to Ephesians 1. If you follow the line of thought in the bolded parts Paul is giving blessing to God for something God did, blessing, choosing (electing - same word), and predestining. This passage seems to clearly place God as the one chosing with no other motives for choosing. Why would Paul thank God for choosing him if Paul had chosen God? This is the Calvinist view. They would say that God is sovereign in all things and God does what he pleases. Everything is for his glory even the judgement of those who do not believe. They would say God chooses who he would have save. Some would even say that God chooses those who would not be saved. They would point to passages like in the case of Moses when God hardened Pharoah's heart to his own destruction. This view IMO has a greater sense of the fact that the glory of God is primary in all of life and a greater sense of God's sovereignty. But how can we have human free will? Well I think this is the great mystery of life. I chose to respond to your post today, but somehow this was also in accordance with his will. How does this effect witnessing? Should I not witness because God will draw all of those he chooses. No I'm still held accountable for my choices, and I can still be used of God! Let me be a part of his drawing. This is a summary (I hope understandable). And I'd be curious to see what Pastor M and Pastor J say. There are good Christians on both side of this debate.

Matt, that's great, and after having completed Doctrine III last semester (which includes a study in the doctrine of salvation), I feel completely confident in saying, that I am totally baffled by this concept. Not that I don't understand it per se, but I guess I tend to see it as though we (as humans), being finite, could never hope to completely understand an infinite God. As far as trying to balance our choice with God's complete sovreignty, I have no idea, and it may be one of those things we'll have to wait until heaven to understand.

I too am excited to hear from the pastors. Dad, where are you?

Hey, I want in on this but I need to do a little more research first. This is a topic that I find very challenging. It seems difficult to resolve to a logical conclusion. I will post something on this tonight (maybe late). I won't see you all in church tomorrow, we are going to Lori-Jean's sister's house for Easter.
Bruce

OK, this is my rant on predestination. Obviously, these are my opinions. In some areas I can state with some certainty that my opinions are facts. This is not one of those areas. Please do your own thinking and research. This is a subject that I find very challenging.
My understanding is that there are two basic schools of thought. I’m going to steal an analogy from Mark Vance, he we discussed this topic in some detail last year on the Utah trip. The analogy goes like this. We are all in a deep pit with no way to get out without help. The Calvinist position would be that God reaches down and plucks out those who will be saved. The Arminian position would be more like God lowering a ladder and inviting us to climb out. There are problems with both.
Calvinist problems: The NT is replete with verses that state that salvation only requires faith. Many of the verses that we have all memorized and use frequently to evangelize (John 3:16, Acts 16:31, etc., etc.) strongly imply that the offer of salvation is open to all. In John 3:16 the word world is the Greek word “kosmos” from which the English word cosmos is derived. Now, can we say that the offer of salvation is genuine if the person receiving the offer has not the capability to accept? Does Acts 16:30-31 need to be reworded to say: “ What must I do to be saved? Believe on the lord Jesus Christ (oh, and, of course, you have to have been chosen by God before the world was formed) and you will be saved.” Is there really an offer of salvation here if the jailer is incapable of accepting the offer?
Arminian problems: The problem with the Arminian point of view is that the NT also states with no reservation that man has no redeeming qualities of himself. I think very few people reading this would disagree with that. Thus, the idea that we could take the initiative on our own to put our foot on the ladder is ridiculous. The other problem that comes up is that if you believe that you did something (no matter how small or insignificant) to earn your salvation, can’t you then do something to lose it? Don’t you then go down the road of salvation by works? Are the Mormons right?
As I was doing this research and thinking about this topic, I came across an article which used the word antinomy.
Antinomy: A contradiction between principles or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable; a paradox.
This word probably accurately describes my perception of these two concepts. Ok, I invite comment. However, “we’ll understand it all in heaven” is not a valid response. I’m not saying it’s not true, but we should all be exercising our critical thinking skills now. Also, I know that I have not done this topic justice. I’m fairly certain that large books have been written by very smart people on this topic.
Bruce

Read Romans 11:33-36. I've had numerous discussions on this topic, be careful though that you don't try too hard to wrap your mind around it. MMichaelsen was right in that we will never fully understand it as it seems irreconcileable in our minds. Paul wraps it up well by saying that God's judgements are unsearchable and the clay has no right to question the potter. All the same though, it is a big hang-up for a lot of unsaved people so you had better be at least a little familiar with the discussion.

Acts 2:23 is also an interesting verse. It shows God's sovereignty in the death of Jesus, and yet Peter is also holding the listeners accountable for actually nailing him to the cross. The dicotomy is apparent here.

The problem with this discussion is that it is being discussed by finite beings bound by time trying to comprehend the attributes, design, and working of an infinite God who is outside of time!

It is good to critically think about topics like this but to what end? If it doesn’t strengthen our walk with our Father or better equip us to serve Him to reach the lost then we are wasting our time and focusing our energies inappropriately. Peter brings a good point that this is a hook up for many unsaved people, so the goal of the discussion need be “How do we help lead a person from doubt and unbelief in God because of the predestination vs. free will debate, to belief?”

Does anyone have personal experience with overcoming this issue, or helping someone remove this stumbling block, prior to accepting Christ?